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TUC music wish list

Page history last edited by Andrew Alder 16 years, 10 months ago

Please update this list with your own ideas, requests, dreams, suggestions, opinions, even links and information such as likely costs.


What not to include:


* Sheet music - this is a separate budget item


* Fixed PA and AV upgrades - these are the subject of a separate project


It's particularly helpful if the worship leaders and band leaders contribute, but everyone's input is welcome at this stage. Once we think we have the list complete and costed, then we'll have a go at setting some agreed priorities.


The update password is available from Andrew Alder, and once you have it, feel free to share it with other interested parties on a "need to know" basis.


Or, if you find updating the page too daunting for any reason, just email your input to Andrew.


See also TUC music wish list DRAFT for an ordered list, pared down of alternatives (but you need a special password for this as it contains confidential quotes)





Major proposed purchase, perhaps as much as $3000.


To be portable enough to be used both:


  • In the main Worship Space in the 9am and 6:30pm services, supplementing the existing piano and organ


  • In the Chapel, as an alternative to the existing organ and piano



Yamaha S90ES $3,999 RRP is lovely but probably beyond our means. No built-in amplifier or speaker system so it needs an external amplifier for use in the chapel, which may increase the overall cost and also makes it more complex to use there.



Yamaha P140 at $1,999 RRP incl GST has both piano and organ voices plus some exciting others, built-in amplifiers and speaker system but only 3W a side which is far too little. Can optionally be used with external amplifier (or powered wedge). Available in black or in blonde wood veneer. specs


Kawai ES4 has 13W+13W and six tiny loudspeakers, not nearly loud enough on the internal speakers, only 21 tones and insufficient output to feed a Wharfedale SVP-12PM from its line out (tried it).


Jumping to a solution: Roland RD300SX plus Wharfedale SVP-12PM (see foldback wedges below) gives reasonably simple operation in several different modes and venues, lots of capability. In the standard Chapel setup, add a volume pedal between the keyboard aux out and the wedge line in to make organists feel more at home (label it "swell pedal"). - aa


Roland RD300SX $1,968 discount has good piano and organ sounds, available to try at Turramurra Music.


Kawai MP4 $2,199 discount is a little more elaborate.


Roland FP4 (spec) has built in speakers, 333 tones, self contained, RRP $2,495. owners manual (PDF)


Yamaha Clavinova CLP-220 at $2395 RRP is more like a piano, 20W+20W built in amplifiers and speakers but less portable as a result. Probably has organ among its "instrumental" voices, but unconfirmed as yet. specs


Casio Celviano AP80 RRP: $2,499.00 Sale Price: $1,999.00 258 preset tones including "church organ", "chapel organ" and about 12 other "organ" sounds, more than 12 pianos. 20W+20W built-in amplifiers and speakers. Weighs 41.6Kg without stand, 54Kg with stand. user manual (PDF, 2361KB)


Portability combined with adequate power combined with the simplicity of everything built in to one integrated unit may not be achievable at any price; What to compromise?


  • Even though there's a ramp from the Chapel down to the Worship Space floor level, there is then no ramp back up the two steps to the band area, so even the best castors only solve half the problem. lateral thinking
  • The Chapel unit needs to be self-contained, ready for use twice a month regularly and ad-hoc at other times.
  • Can one of the combo amplifiers proposed for bass and guitar use, or the proposed powered wedge, also be used in the Chapel with a portable keyboard? Probably any one of them will be more than adequate. more lateral thoughts


A volume pedal would make organists more at home... label it "swell". Boss FV50 passive volume pedal $159 RRP, has preset minimum volume (cute). Some keyboards allow an "expression" pedal, about $100 to us, but not all do.


Gospel Pianos (hence GPS) propose a high-end package including MP8, keyboard amp and bass amp


Some keyboards have "organ" sounds that respond to keyboard velocity-sensing! Will this frustrate and annoy organists? My suspicion is that it will make many players more at home... those who are more at home on piano than on organ anyway. But it does also mean we fail to train the next generation of organists to play the Rodgers. - aa




Bass amplifier


to replace Roland Cube Bass 60 currently on loan (owner requires it back urgently). CB60 is out of production, current models are CB30 (30W, $395 sale price) and CB100 (100W, $695 sale price, 12" speaker unlike the previous CB100 model which was 15"). Both current Roland models have amp modelling and other premium features, good brand reputation, but 30W may not be enough for us. current Roland catalog (PDF, 756KB)


Fender Rumble 100 at $629 would certainly do the job. 100W, 15" speaker plus horn.


Behringer BXL900A at $320 incl GST is probably adequate. 90W, 12" speaker, nice wedge format. Probably not rugged enough for a rock band "on the road". Excellent studio level performance. Ruggedness and therefore lifespan the main query. Out of stock at Turramurra Music but they would get one in for us to try out... they do have a BXL1800.


Ashdown five fifteen $599 100W 15" speaker and 8ohm external speaker jack, very basic facilities but adequate. Allegedly formerly known as Trace Elliot, highly respected, but this site sells both brands!


We have available to us at least two adequate bass loudspeaker systems, both on castors. Would an amplifier head be a better proposition than a combo? Finding a suitable head may not be easy; Behringer BX4500H RRP $550 is 450W, too powerful for one of the loudspeaker stacks (which uses an Etone 200W 4ohm 15" main driver) and typical of modern low-end heads. Even if we decide on this route, a modern combo amp with an external speaker jack may work better for us than a separate amplifier head. Behringer BXL1800 does not have an external speaker jack, very unlikely that the BXL900A does.


Suitable second-hand head on eBay


GPs propose 200W Peavey bass amp (model?)


Guitar amplifier


to replace Fender Vibralux currently on loan and in need of repair.


Fender FM212R (100W 2x12" loudspeakers 3 channels) at $550 is possibly overkill for Sunday services but seems much better value than Fender FM65R (65W 1x12" 2 channels) at $429 (both incl GST)


Marshall MG 50DFX (50W, 1x12" loudspeaker, 2 channels) is $569 but boasts premium features (eg digital delay as opposed to spring reverb on the Fenders) and the brand is much better regarded by some of our guitarists


Keyboard amplifier


Do we need one, or are the DIs adequate? If we don't have one, do we need more foldback sends and/or wedges as a consequence?


See Foldback wedges below for discussion of a powered wedge, which would probably do this job in the chapel better than a keyboard amplifier would, owing to the simplified controls, or TUC music musings for some even more lateral thoughts.


GPs propose a high-end 100W keyboard amplifier (model?) which sounds great.




Cymbal stands


Two boom stands would greatly improve both the sound and appearance of the kit. We already have two crash cymbals to mount on them. About $300 for the two.




Replace the one currently on loan (owner requires it back and takes it to gigs occasionally although not on Sundays recently). About $150




New snare skins are urgently required, top and bottom. $28 each RRP = $56 for both. The other drums really deserve a better snare drum but maybe not now, new skins will work magic.


New bottom tom skins (all 3) would greatly improve the sound, but need to be somehow protected from abuse. Bottom heads should never be hit! These all have been. $28 + $29.50 + $35.50 = $93 RRP for the three.


New top tom skins (another $93 for three) would also improve the sound and also the appearance but are less critical, and probably the current bottom skins can be recycled as top ("batter") heads for almost as good a result.




Drummers should be encouraged to bring their own, but a pair of 7N or similar should always be on hand for emergencies. Budget 2 pairs PA (about $12 each, maybe on special down to $5 if we're lucky).




The kit hardware is showing signs of wearing out (mainly owing to overtightening of the screw threads).


  • Threads are starting to bind


  • Hanging tom arms are dented


  • One floor tom leg casing has been replaced


At some time in the future the kit will need replacement, but probably not yet. Rebuilding the existing kit with new hardware is probably not economic. Existing crash cymbals and proposed stool and stands would be used with the new kit.


A 10" medium splash cymbal would round out the kit nicely, but not a high priority, and would also be used with any future upgrade.







Replacement for the lapel microphone, which has been giving trouble. Glenn Leembruggen, the consultant who prepared the report on loudspeaker placement, suggested a Countryman Isomax E6 Earset omnidirectional wireless headset microphone ($845 RRP incl GST for the microphone only - no transmitter or receiver in that price) rather than a lapel. One advantage of omni is that it will pick up other adjacent voices... for example, the vows at a wedding, and the responses at a baptism.


A second handheld wireless microphone would be a big help in evening service.


JTS 902 twin microphone system is available in various combinations including one handheld and one headset (headset includes body pack transmitter as well as actual headset), all for about the same price. System at St Andrews (two dynamic handhelds plus twin diversity receiver) works very well, cost just under $800 incl GST. Transmitters use 2xAA batteries which would mean we're using two different and incompatible battery types (existing EV transmitters use 9V), and would mean we have a spare unused EV receiver. Both cardoid and omnidirectional JTS headset microphones are available, compatibility with 900 series body pack needs to be verified, but these transmitters can be used with a wide range of microphones or with electric guitars, and their connector is a 4 pin mini XLR, so probably not hard to match. Also particular package availability and pricing needs to be researched.


Foldback wedges


One more wedge to allow for the greater band area regularly used in the 6:30pm service.


Possibly a higher-performance unit to give greater clarity for the lead vocal.


Wharfedale SVP-12M 150W RRP $259


Wharfedale SVP-12PM 150W powered RRP $549. Regularly in stock at Turramurra music, good sound with keyboards but needs a fairly high output, which some keyboards have but not others. External 8ohm speaker output, so we could take one of our wedges to the shop, connect it to this and see how they compare for quality.


Making this a powered wedge would avoid two problems:


  • The existing amplifiers can power up to four wedges per string; A powered wedge would not load the string significantly, so all five could in need go on one string, simplifying setup in this way (but complicating it in others).


  • A powered wedge would have an input pad, which can be used to match its sensitivity to the existing wedges.


A powered wedge could also have a line and instrument level preamp for little (if any) extra cost, which:


  • Would allow the 9am bands to use it as an on-stage amplifier for keyboard or electronic drums (or acoustic guitar with a preamp).


  • Would allow it to be used with a portable keyboard in the Chapel, see Keyboard amplifier above.


Disadvantages of a powered wedge:


  • greater cost.


  • need for a power cable complicates setup and further clutters the band area.


  • quite complicated to use it on a string on its own (better to use a balanced line-level return instead if that is ever required - maybe even make this the normal setup, taking a line level split from the foldback 1 send and repatching in need).


Aviom system


See one church's experience. Probably out of our price range.




Music stands


Three more music stands. We have five in reasonable condition. The 2nd Sunday 9am band is using younger musicians and needs a minimum of eight (drums, guitar, bass, 3 melody shared between up to six players, 2 vocal shared between three singers).


Stands with bow rests provide a place to put a pencil, guitar capot, plectrum, and are available from Turramurra Music to match the existing stands. (I can demonstrate one - aa) Generic stand RRP $69 with GST and without discount or bow rest.


Instrument stands


We have two young flautists. A double flute stand would protect their instruments, and save space even when they get to the stage of owning their own individual stands. Hamilton base $31 + 2 x flute peg $18 = $67, allows for up to 5 instruments on the base if we later purchase more pegs, top quality; Hercules DS543B Flute/Clarinet/Piccolo $34 RRP, adequate quality and more versatile - comes complete with two flute/clarinet combination pegs, and one piccolo peg which we might be able to later change for (say) a trumpet peg or another flute peg.


The guitar stand in the cupboard belongs to Trevor Warren, and goes missing every now and again (without his permission!). Multiple guitar stands are available in several formats; All fit a range of guitars but none fits all guitars, and guitarists preferences vary greatly. But should we consider such a purchase? 2-way vertical stands are not recommended; 3-way vertical gives best space utilisation and is far more stable even when used with only two guitars. (Again I can demonstrate one - aa) About $60 RRP for the 3=way vertical.


See also:


* http://tuctechtalk2.pbwiki.com PA and AV upgrade wiki


* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TUCTechTalk/ TUC Tech Talk email group


* TUC music musings for things that are interesting but borderline as to whether they're helpful here


* TUC music wish list DRAFT for an ordered list, pared down of alternatives


* TUC music gear reviewers which you need the password to even view, for privacy reasons

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